Talk:Dragon Ball Z: The Tree of Might
Placement One thing that is missed is that Yamcha has King Kai's symbol on the back of his uniform which pretty much confirms that this takes place after frieza. This probably takes place in the 3 years they are training for the androids and what source is everybody finding that says this takes place before frieza. User:Slayer25769 :Come on, you did notice in the article that this movie was created before Frieza ever appeared in th series, right? One can attempt to make the movie fit later, but the fact is that the Trunks Saga wasn't even in Toriyama's mind when this movie was finished.--Sega381 19:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC) : :I'm guessing it's an alternate universe in which Piccolo survived the battle with Vegeta and Nappa, and finished off Vegeta despite Goku telling him not to. Only plot hole there is Chiaotzu's presence after already being wished back once. Doc D 07:41, August 13, 2011 (UTC) ::Total speculation. Why randomly deciding that Piccolo survived and not Chiaotzu, and that Piccolo killed Vegeta. It was never hintted in the movie. And Frieza already appeared in the series when the movie was created: the film was released during the Namek Saga. Jeangabin666 11:07, August 13, 2011 (UTC) :::It's because speculation is the only thing we have on the topic, and as best as I can deduce, Piccolo's survival in some freak change of events would be the most likely way ToM could happen. With what we know now, if Tree of Might does not take place in some alternate timeline, it's either a totally hypothetical story, or creates a lot of plot holes in the story we know. Now, if it is a totally hypothetical story, then there's no reason not to say it takes place in an alternate timeline. If it's in the canon story but creates such significant plot holes, it may as well be taking place in an alternate timeline (albeit a different one). Doc D 20:41, August 15, 2011 (UTC) Ok I'm going to make some clarification to hopefully end this debate once and for all. The movie is non canon toward the manga but it is canon to the anime since this is how Gohan meets Icarus and he is seen in parts of the anime series. This movie was released during the time the Freiza Saga was still going. It was intended to take place after all the stuff on Namek was over and all the Z Fighters were brought back to life. The writers were unaware of the fact of how the Frieza Saga was going to turn out in the end so thats why there is plot hole in this movie. The movie proves it takes place after Frieza since Yamcha has King Kai's symbol on his uniform showing he was brought back. Nothing implies this is an alternate timeline, its simply just a plot hole by Toei Animation. - Guys the movie is clearly non-canon. The credibility of this site is greatly reduced by the bias about the movie's placement. TheMattMan095 (talk) 21:28, February 19, 2014 (UTC) :Canon doesn't exist in Dragon Ball. 04:42, February 20, 2014 (UTC) Saying the word "non-canon" is synonymous with saying "I am biased against certain types of media". What is worse is that those biases associated with "canon" are different for everyone. Wikia articles must be edited without bias, so individual definitions of canon cannot be included. 06:08, February 20, 2014 (UTC) Image Shouldn't there be a pic of icarus attacking shenron? Cartoon Network version Did no one mention the version that was shown on Cartoon Network? They redub most of the dialogue and add scenes from the anime. e.g. * A pan shot of deep space taken from "Goku's Unusual Journey". * The satellite which caused the fire had a computer voice analyzing its surroundings. * A female voice announce the city to evacuate as the branches began to spread, and the father of the boy with the balloon calling his name. * Turles recognizes Goku's Spirit Bomb. * King Kai dancing around after the Tree of Might was destroyed. Taken from "Stop Vegeta Now!". * Piccolo's inner monologue at the end. Showing he's ever vigilant. -Turtle Soup 06:18, September 3, 2011 (UTC) :You mention this in a difference section. Jeangabin666 08:53, September 3, 2011 (UTC) :: Which section did I mention it? -Turtle Soup 11:33, September 19, 2011 (UTC) FUNimation Version It's kinda funny how Piccolo says "I'm your worse nightmare", or "I'm everything you ever fear", as a reference to Batman. And how Turles says that Gohan (in ape form) has a soft spot for a purple dinosaur. Kinda sounds like he was talking about Barney. Ocean Voices The VHS version credits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DSGS0jjatY) the following for English Voice Talent: Don Brown, Ted Cole, Paul Dobson, Saffron Henderson, Peter Kelamis, Terry Klassen, Lalainia Lindbjerg, Scott McNeil, Doug Parker, Ward Perry, Laara Sadiq, Alvin Sanders, Matt Smith, Cathy Weseluck Other than obvious roles (Brown, Cole, Henderson, Kelmais, Klassen, Lindbjerg, McNeil, Sadiq, Smith, Weseluck) most of the other voices are similar to the TV version but somehow have failed to be recognized properly. For example: *Alvin Sanders is involved in the VHS version, and most likely voices Cacao. Don Brown is only in a position to voice Cacao in the TV version unless Sanders is actually credited there as well. *Paul Dobson gives Amond a similar voice that he has given to later characters such as Landmine from Transformers Cybertron. *Don Brown voices a different short alien in each dub: in the TV version he voices the one who refers to himself as "Rasin" and in the VHS version "Lakasei." That said, Brown voices the same scene in both dubs where Lakasei takes on Chiaotzu and then Gohan. *I think many will agree that Scott McNeil took over for Alec Willows in the VHS dub for both his usual character Oolong and "Lakasei" (role correctly assigned to "Rasin" in VHS). *Doug Pakrker voices Icarus / Higher Dragon in both dubs using variations of his signature Terrorsaur screech. Oolong is quite clearly done by McNeil. *With no other actors or characters remaining, Ward Perry can only be associated with Turles (at least in the VHS version). No other character sounds like a Perry usual (especially not Rasin either version as you had claimed up until now), but Perry has sounded like Turles before, such as with Laurence Blood in the Fatal Fury animations. As far as the VHS version goes it is not Ted Cole, but if Perry is also credited for the TV version then he had to have been Turles there as well. I don't know the TV version credits myself, but I know that at least Corlett, Henderson, McNeil, Klassen, Brown and Cole were credited to some extent. If someone (with either old videotapes or perhaps the Rock the Dragon set if they are included) can provide the actual TV version credits here so we can straighten this out once and for all that would be most helpful. Can someone do this, please? HubStyle (talk) 04:27, September 2, 2013 (UTC) :Then what's the source for the changes you made? Because now the page is inconsistent with the voice actor biogaphies. 05:16, September 2, 2013 (UTC) Trivia???? How can this be during the three year time skip when the movie was released a whole year before it happened? Stitchking1 (talk) 16:30, February 1, 2015 (UTC) :All Toriyama needed to do was tell the producing team that the Z Fighters eventually return to Earth. 20:56, February 2, 2015 (UTC) Speculation? I don't understand why this paragraph in the "Timeline Placement" section is constantly removed for supposed "speculation": :However, since Goku is unable to transform into a Super Saiyan and both his power level and that of Piccolo are much inferior than they were after their return from Namek, this timeline placement is not consistent either. #Goku is clearly unable to transform into Super Saiyan, because if he could do it, he would have done it. It makes no sense that he endures a beating by Turles and tries to defeat him with a Kaioken x10 and a Spirit Bomb if he simply could transform and beat him. #Goku's power level is tremendously inferior than it was after his return from Namek. Turles' power level is stated to be around 300,000 after eating the fruit of the Tree of Might, while Goku's power level at the beginning of his fight against Frieza was 3 million (and this without taking into account the zenkai after Frieza's defeat). If the movie really happens after the return from Namek, Goku should be able to defeat Turles in his normal state without even using Kaioken. #The same applies to Piccolo's power level, which was over 1 million after his fusion with Nail, and in this movie is easily beaten by Turles. Tell me where you see the speculation.--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 04:32, June 16, 2015 (UTC) :This note did a nice job of clearing things up. Without the numbers you wrote here, I couldn't tell what point you were trying to make. The events do seem to take place after the return from Namek, but the power levels are inconsistent with what they should be. I think it would be appropriate to note this inconsistency in trivia. 05:19, June 16, 2015 (UTC) ::Goku's and Piccolo's power levels in the movie are already stated in the Trivia as 30,000 and 18,000 respectively; though I don't know if these were their base or full powers (the movie seems to suggest that they were the latter). I readded the paragraph and a bit of more information to make the point clearer. ::The movie evidently happens sometime after the Vegeta saga (the presence of King Kai and Goku using Kaio-ken and Spirit Bomb confirms it); but since everyone are revived while still with those low power levels, and the fact that the movie was released before the confrontation with Frieza happened in the manga, the only possible explanation is that it takes place in an alternate timeline where the Z Fighters managed to revive their friends and return to Earth without encountering Frieza and his men.--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 15:20, June 16, 2015 (UTC) We know exactly when the movie takes place, because the Daizenshuu says when it takes place. The power levels are an inconsistency that belongs in trivia. The fact that Goku doesn't turn Super Saiyan is just a fighting style choice for all we know, and not an inconsistency. 00:43, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :The Daizenshuu says it takes place after the Saiyan saga and before the confrontation against Frieza, but you have a paragraph there that says that it takes place during the 3 years training before the coming of the Androids. My paragraph is just noticing that such statement is inconsistent, and providing an explanation about it (the movie was released when the manga was still showing the fight against the Ginyu Force). :It's not just about the power levels, and Goku not turning into Super Saiyan is not a matter of choice (if you see the movie you'd know that such thing makes no sense); when the movie was released the transformation had not yet been revealed. He doesn't transform because he can't. That paragraph is correct and is useful.--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 01:10, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::You said Goku is unable to transform, which is not the same as it not being revealed yet in real life. According to Daizenshuu, he did have the the ability to transform. The movie couldn't possibly make a stance as to whether or not he could transform, so saying in the article that he is unable to is wrong. Ignoring real life creation of media, in-universe Goku can transform but chooses not to. 01:19, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::In which page it says that Goku is able to transform into Super Saiyan? Because I have the Daizenshuu, and though my Japanese is poor, I haven't seen any mention of the Super Saiyan in the section of movie 3. :::What the book says is that the movie takes place after Goku's arrival on Namek and before his confrontation against Frieza; but since the story is set on Earth, there is an inconsistency and therefore it is a movie-only story. Even in the early scenes Lakasei says that with the fruit of the Tree of Might they will be able to defeat Frieza, further indicating that he is still alive. It doesn't take place during the 3-year training before the Android saga as the article says; and if we are going to try to adjust it to the main storyline, at least we should explain why that timeline placement is inconsistent, which is exactly what that paragraph that is constantly being removed tries to do. :::Saying that Goku is able to transform but chooses not to is a totally wrong assumption, not only for the timeline placement but because it makes no sense with the events of the movie, where it is clearly seen that Goku desperately tries to defeat Turles by all means but he can't until he has to use the Spirit Bomb as the last resort.--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 02:39, June 18, 2015 (UTC) I'll have to agree with Manuel, Daiz 6 says the timeline placement is before the fight with Frieza, see this picture. 02:48, June 18, 2015 (UTC) :Isn't the final confrontation with Frieza on Earth with Trunks present? 07:07, June 18, 2015 (UTC) ::Yes it is because Trunks kills Frieza. :::No, that's not the fight Daizenshuu is talking about, otherwise it wouldn't say that it's an inconsistency that the story is set on Earth. It's talking about the fight on Namek. Even the description for movie 4 "Lord Slug" says this: ::::"From the fact that Goku has not yet become a Super Saiyan, this story takes place before the final showdown with Frieza. However, at this time Goku should be in the midst of his battle on Planet Namek... This must also be a movie inconsistency." --Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 11:11, June 18, 2015 (UTC) Was that Lakasei line about being stronger than Frieza even in the Japanese script? I only ever recall hearing it in the 1998 Pioneer version, so it could just be written off as a non-canon dub line. DeeBeeZee (talk) 18:20, June 18, 2015 (UTC) :I wish you would point out Daizenshuu quotes that make your point before we argued so much, haha. I clearly can't refute a direct quote from an official guidebook. We should just put that exact quote in the timeline section, sound good? 01:47, June 19, 2015 (UTC) ::It is there actually, it's the first paragraph of that section. I didn't mention it because... I assumed you had read it. @_@ ::So you still think the paragraph I added and that clarifies that the timeline placement during the 3-year training before the Androids saga is inconsistent shouldn't be restored? ::I don't believe that second placement serves a purpose actually, since it's totally wrong; but I guessed that being my first edit, removing information wouldn't be welcome...--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 03:04, June 19, 2015 (UTC) :I agree with Manuel, and not just on this page, several other movie pages also have those wrong secondary placements. If nobody disagrees I'll also remove on those pages. 03:11, June 19, 2015 (UTC) The first post you put here was you making a point, but you didn't say what the source was. Linking an official source like the Daizenshuu is a completely different, and much more meaningful argument than just using logic. It may feel weird at first, but official sources take priority on a wiki even in times when they don't make sense. Yes, I think it's appropriate to remove the guess on here. Let's talk individually about doing so for other articles on those articles' talk pages, since each case is going to be unique. 00:25, June 20, 2015 (UTC) :I just disagreed, Sandubadear. 01:25, June 20, 2015 (UTC) OK, w8. What exactly? Daizenshuu is a source, while the speculation saying that it "possibly" happens during the Android saga is not. 01:39, June 20, 2015 (UTC) :Yeah, I don't see what is the purpose of that. The movie doesn't happen during those 3 years of training, so that's even false information. I guess we could say that in the main timeline the only period it could fit would be there, but we come back to the first point of the inconsistencies of Goku being unable to transform and that stuff. And that feels like fanfiction. :/--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 03:02, June 20, 2015 (UTC) ::And it would be speculation to say that. 03:29, June 20, 2015 (UTC) :I think we're good to go adding the exact Daizenshuu quote to this article, without any interpretation or rewording on our part. Sandubadear, we can't just do a blanket sweep on all the other articles removing everything in the timeline placement section. We should do this logically, discussing those articles on their respective talk pages. They don't all have Daizenshuu quotes as clear as what we're seeing here, and you were deleting a lot of content without replacing it with anything else. 03:16, June 21, 2015 (UTC) I didn't remove everything in the timeline placement section. I removed only the speculation and kept the Daizenshuu quotes. 03:21, June 21, 2015 (UTC) :If you wanna do it your way, Here's the link for the translation of Daizenshuu 6. Just click on the movie links and you'll see the Timeline placement under "Movie Time Chart". 03:23, June 21, 2015 (UTC) ::I'm all for using the Daizenshuu, I was against you removing content without adding in a better version. When we only have the one best theory, we're better using it than not. 05:00, June 25, 2015 (UTC) :I did basically the same thing you did here in this article. Removed the speculation about "maybe it takes place in the 3 years of the Androids but Goku didnt go Super Saiyan because he didnt want I guess", while still keeping the Daizenshuu quote, which is not speculation. 17:03, June 25, 2015 (UTC) ::If you want to make a significant change on another article, you have to use that page's talk, because it is a different situation. Here, we replaced some speculation with facts. On other articles, you just removed content and had nothing to add. It's not okay for you to apply a decision made about this article to other articles with different situations. Use the other article's talk pages to decide what is best for other articles. 19:06, June 28, 2015 (UTC) :I removed the speculation and added the Daizenshuu info (or left the Daiz info if it already had it). If you disagree with the way I added it, do your own way, I'm sure you'll write it better than I can. Here's the link for the translation of Daizenshuu 6. 22:23, June 28, 2015 (UTC) Timeline placement I placed it after Counting Down, Episode 21 in the uncut Vegeta saga. Considering the inconsistency stated above it's the only place that made sense. Just ignore the fact that Vegeta and the big guy land on earth at the end of Counting Down and take it from episode 22 Darkest day after the movie (and pretend goku isn't halFway through Snakeway and instead has already made it to earth and is waiting with the others... heh). I also put Lord Slug right after The Tree of Might.... so actually two movies (scenarios) play out while they're waiting for Vegeta to arrive. --DragonIrons (talk) 01:46, July 27, 2015 (UTC)